Armenia is considered one of the birthplaces of winemaking, with archaeological evidence dating back at least 7,000 years. Tragically, the country’s wine culture was decimated under the Soviet Union, when it was forced to produce brandy instead of wine.
That finally started changing about a dozen years ago. Today, more than 200 wineries are operating in the country, and their bottles can now be found in markets and restaurants around the United States and Europe. Leading this renaissance is the father-daughter team of Vahe and Aimee Keushgerian, who produce the Keush and Zulal wines while also overseeing collaborative vineyard and production projects for dozens of other brands.
You May Also Like: A Guide to Armenia, One of the World’s Oldest Wine Regions
It hasn’t been an easy road, because some of the best Armenian terroir and its most coveted indigenous grape varieties were located within and on the border of Nagorno-Karabakh. That breakaway republic of ethnic Armenians—the result of a brutal war between Armenia and Azerbaijan from 1991 to 1994—became a conflict zone again in 2020, when Azerbaijan attempted to regain control of the land.
That led to a dramatic and dangerous harvest season for the Keushgerians that vintage, when they had to pick grapes on the borderlands while battles raged nearby. In September of 2023, Azerbaijan struck the final blow to the republic, taking over the territory, evicting 150,000 Armenians and, as of January 1, 2024, wiping Nagorno-Karabakh off the map.
I know this conflict well, having spent nearly a month in Nagorno-Karabakh back in 2004. I was there with war photographer Jonathan Alpeyrie to report on the geopolitical situation. We also stumbled into the region’s wine culture that was then slowly reemerging from the war a decade earlier, and spent a few days visiting vineyards littered with landmines and wineries whose walls were riddled with bullet holes. The experience led to my first major feature story in an international magazine and launched my career as a wine journalist. The local people, now refugees, and places of Nagrono-Karabakh will always be close to my own heart.
You May Also Like: 9 Grapes to Help You Understand Armenian Wine
In 2021, emboldened by Armenia’s own struggles, yet focused on uplifting the history of wine in the greater region, Vahe Keushgerian vowed to make wine from grapes grown in neighboring Iran. Though wine history dates back just as far in Iran—an ancient Armenian winery site is just miles from the Iranian border—the country continues to uphold a ban on alcoholic beverages enacted during the Islamic revolution of 1979.
He succeeded in 2021, searching the countryside for grapes and exporting them back to Armenia, where he and Aimee made the first commercial wine from grapes grown in Iran in more than 40 years.
This saga is the heart of the SommTV documentary Cup of Salvation, which is now streaming online after touring theaters around North America. To hear more about what drew Vahe Keushgerian to Armenia, why Aimee decided to join him, and what the future looks like for wine in this ancient land, I interviewed them both.
Episode Transcript
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting.
Matt Kettmann 0:09
Hello, and welcome to the Wine Enthusiast podcast. You’re serving of drinks culture and the people who drive it. I’m Matt Kettmann, a writer at large here at Wine Enthusiast. And today I bring you a conversation with Vahe and Aimee Keushgerian, a father-daughter team behind Keush, Zulal and other wine projects in Armenia. Armenia is very close to my own heart. I spent about a month there 20 years ago, and it was a trip that really helped launch my wine writing career, Armenia is considered one of the birthplaces of wine culture. And today it’s experiencing a serious renaissance in winemaking, with Amy and Vahe leading that charge. Their story is the basis of the recently released documentary Cup of Salvation by SommTV, and they joined the podcast to tell us a bit more about the history of wine and Armenia, the exciting energy around the country’s wine community today and why Vahe decided to risk his freedom in 2021 by being the first person to make commercial wine from neighboring Iran in more than 40 years.
This is Matt Kettmann with Wine Enthusiast. I’m here with by Vahe Keushgerian and his daugher Aimee Keushgerian, winemakers from Armenia actually, of all places, and we’re going to talk today about the history of winemaking in Armenia, which goes back millennia. We’re going to talk a little bit about how this father-daughter team got together and decided to start making wine together in Armenia. We’ll talk a little bit about some of the conflicts in that area, particularly around Nagorno-Karabakh or otherwise known as Artsakh, which kind of involves some of their winemaking a few vintages ago. And then we’ll also get into Vahe’s crazy mission to make wine and Iran or get grapes from Iran and make wine in Armenia. All of this is captured on the new film by Somm TV called Cup of Salvation, which you can now watch online. So if you’re excited by this, definitely check out that film. And you can buy these wines too, which you guys sent me some and they were they were fantastic. I haven’t tried the wine from Iran yet, because that seems a little too special. But the other ones from Armenia were fantastic. So let’s just dive in here. Vahe, you’re born in Syria, right, raised in Lebanon, and then in Italy, and then worked in California, and then made wine and Italy and then settled on making some wine in Armenia. So tell me a little bit about your personal history, and how you came to bet on Armenia of all the places to stake your claim when when it comes to wine.
Vahe Keushgerian 2:22
I see. Yeah, pretty much the sequence is right: Syria, and then grew up in Lebanon until I was 19, then Italy. then the U.S.—California—and then came back for a 12-year stint in Armenia, which is the first time I truly made wine. Until then, I was a merchant, selling Italian wines around the U.S. in California in on the East Coast. And then I lease some vineyards, then I lease the winery in Tuscany, and I made wine there. And then Puglia I made wine there. So I had two wineries going at same time. Armenia was honestly it was a chance trip in ’97. Friend of my brother-in-law with a friend, they were going to go to Armenia, they said you want to join us? Sure, sure, of course. And I joined the military in Paris, then we went to Armenia. That’s where I, through talking to people, I was told that that’s where everything started viticulture-wise. And being the romantic type, that was like, all I had to hear. And so this thing got into, in my brain in my mind to, what can I do with it? And then two years later, I came and got some vineyards planted vineyards in ’99, which at the time, there was nobody doing anything in Armenia. Fast forward, that project didn’t go—we planted vineyards at the wrong partner, and so on. So, classic emotional decision, and then, so in 2009, we did a gap year with the family in Armenia, and I started making a project, there was a big project, but there was no winemaking. So I did six bottles of wine, everybody was ooh, it was so good. It was so beautiful. And that project took off. And that started the whole the rebirth of the industry. You know, it was a 300-hectare project. And then it became the leading brand in Armenia, so it set the standard for new winemaking. And then in 2013, I wanted to do sparkling wine, and so on and so forth. And then I got really involved, I never went back to the States. I stayed in Armenia. So I’ve been here for 14 years.
Matt Kettmann 4:42
And you’re Armenian by heritage. Did you grew up speaking Armenian?
Vahe Keushgerian 4:47
Yes, so I spoke Armenian. English would be my second language, but that’s how we started in school. Arabic was the language of the country. So we learned Arabic, we wrote Arabic But we never really practiced until I went to the army, and everyone was Lebanese and they all spoke Arabic and I was the only Armenian in the barracks, let’s put it that way. Otherwise, you know, we kept our head low and everybody did their thing. You know, we were guests in the host country like Syria, Iraq, Lebanon post-genocide, that’s where all the Armenians spread out. Some in the U.S., France, whatnot. So that’s where—both my parents were Armenian, school, boy scout.
Matt Kettmann 5:35
Armenian wine history goes back like 4,000, 6,000 years?
Vahe Keushgerian 5:41
The last, was 6,100 years—because that was carbon dated, this cave in Armenia. But then three or four months ago, maybe now it’s almost six months, there was a cooperative research between local Armenian, European, Chinese researchers, and they dated it to 11,000 years. Not Armenia per se, but our region as the birthplace and it went back 11,000 years. There were two centers, Ashawa was wine grapes, which is vinifera, and then there was in it, I think it was Ashkan or somewhere, table grapes, so eating grapes. So those two, one went east and one went west. And then from West, it went to Europe, it traveled, the vine traveled through Europe, and and then it changed, of course, you know, so.
Matt Kettmann 6:33
And then Armenia had, I mean, just for readers who haven’t followed this, this part of the world history, Armenia was part of the Soviet Union. And at that time, the kind of local winemaking traditions were were kind of stamped down or how would you how would you describe that period?
Vahe Keushgerian 6:48
During the Soviet Soviet Union? We joined the Soviet Union in the ’20s. You know, we were independent, but we were barely making it and then the Soviet, the Red Army came and pretty much everybody there, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, every other Eastern European country became part of the, not all of them, but Soviet Union. We were one of the republics of the Soviet Union. And because the Soviet Union or communist economy was a planned economy, so they had to do five year plans, they had five year plans, so they had this many people and certain countries where you could make wine, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and whatnot. Orapa one of them I could not get about was part of Azerbaijan, but it was Armenian enclave. All they had to do was supply wine to the Soviet Union. So Armenia being given from the soil and Armenia varieties, they decided during Stalin, who are Georgian, that Georgia would make wine and Armenia would make brandy or fortified wines, copies of Sherry, Madeira, and so forth. Port. So they copied all these wines in Armenia, and Armenia supplied the Soviet Union with brandy, lots of it, you know, it’s distillation was working. And except for one region with the caves, because it’s all hills there, they continued making table wines, basically, table wines, because it wasn’t productive. It was flat, you know, they couldn’t milk the soil, so to say. So that area stayed. And they continued making some table wines, otherwise, a couple other places did it. But so far, let’s say we lived in the dark ages until I would say easily 19, 2000 to 2009. So around maybe a 70 years, 75 years.
Matt Kettmann 8:53
So and really only only about 20 years ago did this kind of modern rebirth of Armenian wine culture really started to happen.
Vahe Keushgerian 9:01
Well, you know, the first wines were made from the 2010 Vintage there were three projects concurrently did the wine in the 2010 Vintage that was released in end of 2011. That’s the experiment I did was 2009, the six parents, but 2000 I planted vineyards in 1999. But the big project, 300-some hectares were planted in 2006, 2007. And then that period.
Matt Kettmann 9:34
So it’s really a young—I mean for being the oldest wine region in the world. It’s extremely young.
Vahe Keushgerian 9:41
Around 12 years. The renaissance of the rebirth of the Armenian winemaking is around 12 years. I mean, some pinpoint which month, who when what—it’s really cute in some ways that you can go back and say, “Oh, I remember that restaurant, this restaurant,” because it was like, you know free for all in some ways, and there was no culture, the culture followed. And you know, when I remember when I made the first 25,000 bottles, and sometimes I wake up at night, like, what am I gonna sell this wine? You know, I mean, I was used to selling Italian wines in the US here and there. But you know, me going to a distributor in the US and saying, Hey, I have Armenian wine, he would look at me like, whether, you know which parts of the moon you came from, so I will. But then honestly, I think 25,000 bottles lasted maybe six months. And for the next three or four years, we had deficit. So shops would go to restaurants to buy it from there, because we had restricted it to only four restaurants only. So it was like, kind of cute. And then to a few more brands came and the last three or four years is now every turn taken, I say every hug of se—these are Armenian namaes—are making wine, slap the label. Or go somewhere and somebody makes wine for them. So now it’s completely out of control. Right? Which is good.
Matt Kettmann 11:09
Which is good. It’s a good problem to have. Aimee, you weren’t you weren’t on the wine path prior to joining your dad. Right? I mean, it was not something you’re interested in. Is that safe to say?
Aimee Keushgerian 11:19
No. I mean, I grew up around wine I grew up in Tuscany with Vahe, and I never thought I would sort of follow in my father’s footsteps. But I was graduating college and he invited me to participate in harvest for Keush in 2016. So I thought that would be really fun. And so when I went there that fall, I sort of my my worlds kind of changed because I, A) was was introduced to the wine industry in a very different way. It’s an industry with many with many different facets. It’s an agricultural industry, it’s a craft, it’s a craft industry, you’re producing a fine product. And it’s it’s a global international business. So I the wine industry all of a sudden became very different once I looked at it from from that perspective. And furthermore, coming to Armenia as a diaspora Armenian was very alluring. Having not had your own country, historically, in the last 100 years, and then having your nation be independent, and having a place you call a homeland is a very emotional decision. And it’s a very emotional topic to deal with. So yeah, so So combining those two and then coming to Armenia and seeing that the wine industry is just exploding, 2016 followed 2015, which wasn’t very, there were a couple watershed moments in 2015. For the industry. One, for example, the first, it was the first year that Riedel was imported in Armenia in 2015. And that, that had, just to put things in perspective, it was also the year that the year the wine academy was founded. So so they were kind of watershed moments that happened the year before that you could feel 12 months later, and knowing that there’s rippling effects happening so quickly, was very exciting to be a part of it. So 2016 was my first harvest. And then I started working on the Keush project with with with dad making methode traditionelle in Armenia, you know, and it’s what making sparkling wine in general is very special, and then making methode traditionelle in Armenia is even more special.
Matt Kettmann 11:40
What did, sorry to interrupt, but what did you think you were going to do with your life?
Aimee Keushgerian 13:13
Actually, I thought I was going to work for a big multinational development institution and work on developing rural economies. And and then and Vahe suggested that, you know, a lot of the vineyards and a lot of the the wine industry in Armenia is going to do just that. In fact, we have a lot of vineyards that are in, in border villages and the grapes and the vineyards are now contributing largely largely to growing our rural economy. So he said, you know, you can kind of you can still do that if you’re if you’re passionate about that, and, and make your impact through the wine industry.
Matt Kettmann 13:43
And you get a cool bottle of wine to share with people too.
Aimee Keushgerian 13:46
Yeah, that helps, that’s, that’s a plus. Right?
Matt Kettmann 13:46
And now you’re, you’re actually going to school, you’re getting another degree but in wine in Dijon, France, right. That’s where you’re speaking to us from?
Aimee Keushgerian 13:51
I am. So I’m getting my MBA in wine and spirits at the Burgundy School of Business. It’s a lovely experience. There’s a couple MBA programs that focus in wine in the world. You have Napa, you have UC Davis, you have Kedge in Bordeaux, University of Adelaide. When I when I chose programs, I kind of thought of what wine region do I want to be in? And what region does it make sense to be in for Armenia? When we look at how Armenia is developing as a wine region, we have certain grapes that stand out and certain characteristics and terroir that are defining our wine region, and for me, I kind of pinpointed Burgundy as somewhere where I wanted to go and learn and, and, and take my knowledge, so I come back to Armenia with it.
Matt Kettmann 14:38
Great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about those grapes. Maybe you can start and Vahe can chime in too, but so Armenia has a bunch of different indigenous varieties that are just you know, from Armenia and I think those are part of the kind of Renaissance, these are being rediscovered, re-highlighted and getting some good emphasis put on them to growing them well and making them into really interesting ones. So tell about some of those grapes and what you’re doing with them.
Aimee Keushgerian 15:03
Yeah, well, historically, we have more than 500 Vitis vinifera is said to originate in this region. So you can imagine there’s probably many more than we can even think of. During the Soviet Union, there was a nursery of about 150 indigenous grapes. And now you can find about 40 or 50, although that’s growing as we’re sort of developing and rediscovering lost and ancient grapes. In general, what you find is Areni is our primary grape, which is our black grape variety. And then that comes from Vayots Dzor region and Voskehat for our white grape variety. And then we have some other grapes that that are that are starting to be discovered such as Tozot, Chillar Gurmeet goat, Garan Dmak, we really have, we’re still at the very beginning of a) identifying all these indigenous groups that have potential, we’re at the beginning of understanding the clones that we have, for example, we’ve found 19 clones of Areni, we found a living clones of Tozot, these clonal selections are very significant in how we develop vineyards moving forward. But in general, we are still at the very beginning of discovering what we have in grapes, but mostly what you’ll find is Areni and Voskehat because it is wanting to say the word noble, you know, to give it justice, because it should be called that is a is a beautiful grape variety that is leading a) in terms of quality and style. And yeah, it’s just it’s, it’s great.
Matt Kettmann 16:23
Yeah, and I mean, my experience with Areni is that it’s much light—I mean, there’s kind of a stereotypical Eastern European for lack of a better description style of wine, it tends to be heavy. I mean, you think of Hungarian wines tend to be heavy and big. And Areni is like totally the opposite of that. It’s more elegant. It’s more minerally driven. It’s more subtle, but are you finding grapes that kind of cross the spectrum from lighter to richer wines as well?
Aimee Keushgerian 16:48
Yes, yes, we do have the Sireni grape variety, for example that originates from Atsaf, is very tannic, and big. A little bit, you find wines more on the bolder side with a lot of structure and tannins. Areni does focus to be, does tend to focus on the more elegant side. But when you taste it, you know, it tends to be very fruit forward on the nose, you expect this very kind of light to medium bodied, elegant wine, but then when you taste it has this unexpected, really wonderful structure to it. So it is very complex. And it’s producing wines with with many different layers and complexity. And there are some aroma and flavor characteristics that we’re picking up that you can find in most Arenis. As the region develops a style and winemakers are redeveloping a style for the grape. We’re finding commonalities as well. .
Matt Kettmann 17:33
Great. So let’s talk a little bit about Nagorno-Karabakh and that situation. I know a little bit about it, because I actually spent time there, as I mentioned to both of you back in you know, 20 years ago, I was there in 2004. I spent almost a month in Nagorno-Karabakh, which at that point was essentially an officially unrecognized republic of ethnic Armenians within the surroundings of Azerbaijan. It was the result of a three year pretty brutal three year war from 91 to 94. That followed the end of the Soviet Union, and the Armenians were able to carve out their own Republic there that for years was then kind of the target of Azerbaijan wanting to get it back and your winemaking and wine growing got caught up in the 2020 war over Nagorno-Karabakh. And just to fast forward as of last fall, Azerbaijan attacked again and essentially evacuated, there was 150,000 Armenian refugees had to leave Nagorno-Karabakh. now, as of the beginning of this year, the Republic ceases to exist at all, which is, you know, obviously a tragedy for the Armenians who lived there for generations, if not millennia. So explain to us how you got caught up in the War of 2020 between Azerbaijan and the ethnic Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh?
Vahe Keushgerian 18:53
Yeah, we did. In Nagorno-Karabakh, I had a nursery there. So because there’s phylloxera. There’s two regions in Armenia that have phylloxera, one of was Nagorno-Karabakh. So you couldn’t, as opposed to most of Armenia was own-rooted. You didn’t have to crack. So that was the only operation there to propagate the plants for people wanting to plant new vineyards. And so that during the first time around, of course, we lost it. Now the first time around, it was right on the border. So Azeris didn’t let us care for the land. So that nursery was lost. But in the meantime, I had two or three plantings in Armenia they wanted to experiment with that variety, which is Sireni or Khndoghni, depends on what synonyms and then so now, I restarted the nursery here, because a lot of the winemakers have moved to Armenia now, and some of them want to continue with their variety. So now we’re trying to find adapting to see where which which land or which terroirs are good for this variety. So now we’re propagating that. So we don’t lose that patrimony, if you will. So that was sad because a lot of the everything was left behind because they have to evacuate in three days or something really silly. So everybody left bottles of wine tanks full of wine, equipment and whatnot. And then they just moved on without moving any of their wines. So that was one big jolt, reality jolt, if you will. In Armenia proper in the north, where there’s a region it’s under Azeri gunfire so sniper fire. So some of the videos there are not farmed, because there’s always something happening. And the closest we come in Armenia is our village where we make sparkling wine Khachik village, which is in the movie also. And that’s the highest elevation vineyards in Armenia, which is perfect for sparkling wine, because you can have phenolic maturity without accumulating sugar. And you can have very low pH, great acidity for bubbles. And that’s where we do and that’s where it was the closest because it’s, it’s probably kilometer and a half as the crow flies, which is very, very too close for comfort.
Matt Kettmann 21:35
Yeah, and as shown in the film, you guys are basically picking grapes under as kind of bombs and bullets or, you know, exploding.
Vahe Keushgerian 21:44
There weren’t bombs. But we have to, you know, we have to go there’s a military barracks there, so we had to talk to them talk to the villagers, you know, I mean, yeah, they want to harvest and, and sell their grapes. On the other hand, they don’t want to risk it either. So we basically, you know, try to figure out how to do it. And we, we went and did it very quickly. We harvested we weren’t sure whether we would be able to harvest or not. War all around you and it’s risky.
Matt Kettmann 22:17
Yeah. Yeah. Aimee, did you realize your foray into the wine industry would involve geopolitical conflicts like this?
Aimee Keushgerian 22:27
No, not really, to be honest. Yeah, if my father was a Burgundy producer, I think it may be a little bit safer for me to follow in the family footsteps but the vineyards for Keush that we have are you know, they were planted before Soviet times. And the military bases were built after the vineyards were planted and I think it’s it’s a reality, war in general is a reality that few Western especially the Western world doesn’t really physically experience because wars are you traditionally fought overseas. But historically, wars are commonly fought fought near vineyards. If you look at Champagne, if you look at our Alsace, you know, it’s not new to history, that wars are fought around vineyards. And vineyards have acted as borders and the vineyard in Armenia act as borders. So yeah, I don’t I don’t think I realized that nor was you know, being four hours from from a war at the age of 27. But living in Armenia has given me such a such rich life experiences, I wouldn’t trade it for anything. It’s incredible, really, to be a part of a country that’s growing so fast and, and be part of a wine industry that’s growing so fast. It’s it’s absolutely incredible.
Matt Kettmann 23:27
Well, and then your dad comes up with an even crazier idea of going into Iran to make wine. So just to set that stage, since the Islamic Revolution of 1979, alcohol production has been illegal in Iran. But meanwhile, Iran and Armenia share borders and I guess Armenians can travel there on a tourist visa, so it’s not closed to you like it is to Americans and maybe some other countries. And so Vahe, what are you thinking at this point? Because 2020, you endure the war Nagorno-Karabakh. And then the next year, you just kind of go, let’s let’s do something even crazier, or what draws you to this?
Vahe Keushgerian 24:10
Good question, very existential question, I think, I mean, Aimee probably knows me, one of the few people that really know me well, and they understand my psyche. And, you know, it comes a time where things plateau, and we’ve making wine. Now lots of people making wine. Lots of articles being written. And sometimes I feel okay, what’s next? You know, it has to be. When I was in California, it was Tuscany. When I was in Tuscany, it was Puglia. When it was Puglia, it was Armenia and so forth. And I because it’s, it was illegal, or nobody was making wine, the whole narrative, the whole story was compelling for me, honestly, it’s just like, I have to be the first to make wine from it and enclaves because I knew about History of it, I knew I had been to Haji funeral stepping, which is nice Tabriz on the north, you know, where excavations that stood still since the revolution, and there’s a treasure trove of wine, culture, Wine, wine, all for wine, gold goblets, and whatnot. And nothing was. So it was really compelling for someone who is in the industry and is looking for the next adventure, not the folly, but adventure in some romantic ways. Also, kind of, you know, quite to see between peoples what we can do. And for two, I went, we went, I went once I did research, I spoke to people there, came back, every year there was something one year, I don’t have the cash another year, I’m busy with the wine that they another is something. So when we did the movie, Jason Wise is the director. I spoke to him about Iran, when they are going to do it, he must have remembered it. So the movie was, then I think we wanted to add that up our war. So another set of videos was done. Then somewhere else, September 21. Right about 21, he calls me and says, Can you pull off making wine in Iran? And you know, I was in a good place, honestly, I had enough people working so I could gamble and go for so many days and in search for grapes in Iran. And I said, let me make some phone calls, literally. And literally, I made some phone calls. You know, someone who knew someone was a friend is Kurdish because it’s it’s Kurdistan, to where I wanted to go. That’s where most of the grapes are from having done research. And then I called him back and said, Yeah, let’s try, I’ll get a truck, which is 18,000 kilos, roughly 15,000 bottles, give or take, you know. And so I said, Yeah, and I went, I didn’t, at some point, my hope level went down. Because my understanding of quality wine grapes and their understanding of grapes is different. This is for for raisin or eating. So they couldn’t process and I didn’t want to keep saying, I want to make wine. So I camouflage it, that, oh, I want to research we want to do this. We want to do that, that kind of I didn’t know someone I’ve been in diplomat who had been an ambassador, here in Armenia told me be careful. You know, they’re very tricky.
Matt Kettmann 27:44
And they’ve lost I mean, just the grape growers have lost, you know, two generations of understanding of what it was like to grow.
Vahe Keushgerian 27:51
Absolutely. They after the fact. So I knew for a fact because Armenians were allowed to make wine. So they did make wine in the houses, but nobody had tanks. There is no modern technology. The last technology was 1979. Imagine, imagine Europe in 79 and kuliah, Sicily, they were all screw presses, and there was no quality anywhere. So that’s, you know, it’s time stood still, for 40. Some years. Yeah. So they don’t have the meaning of what it means a modern wine, except that they have their grapes that went up millennia. So I found that grape, Everyone kept saying, you know, Russia or Russia, that’s the great to do. So I want and then finally, the movie, for example. It’s a true reflection. It wasn’t edited. So we go and I’m not seeing any winners. We keep going. I’m not seeing any winners. And I’m like, Okay, I’m not sure what am I doing, and what their own test Jason in how we went the clips. But then slowly, I started seeing videos in the middle of nowhere gorgeous, top of the hill, wherever. So and then I started smiling. I was very happy, you know, and then we cut these to get the grapes assembled in has been in the refrigerator truck on different throws, broke the graves, and then we roll it to Armenia we did a triage with a selection on the table and we came up with the one I it has a huge potential isn’t that severe? This year, I tried to pull off from Shiraz, which is one of the regions that is the most well known or in poetry, Rumi and I mean that whole region of Shiraz was known for making great work. I couldn’t do it literally. I couldn’t pull it off. Yeah, I kept setting me up people this done they sent me pictures of I didn’t know because to risk enough for me to go. Yeah, you know, I mean, some guy Well, one and he’s talking about it in the movie. I don’t know which way they would swing. You know, they want to teach me a lesson. It might swing the other way.
Matt Kettmann 30:09
Yeah, I mean, you didn’t technically do anything. Well. You just exported grapes. Yeah,
Vahe Keushgerian 30:16
exactly. Yeah. But that what that name is is anion. Is annual winemaking in exile. You know, I push the limits a little bit so it’s like, you know, I So, everybody pretty much everybody told me Don’t even think about
Matt Kettmann 30:33
going yeah, you gotta send an Aimee next. A better fit. What did you think? What did you think when your dad wanted to do this? I mean, there’s some good scenes in the movie that are kind of tense you know, you’re like, Oh, God, you’re really gonna do this. I wasn’t scary. Yeah,
Aimee Keushgerian 30:54
it was incredibly nerve racking. Jason actually made sure to get very real emotions I think on film harvest was starting in Armenia and via was about to go and do something that no one has really done before and we don’t really do anything government isn’t known for having very strict procedure and being predictable in their in their actions. So it was really not knowing how what was going to happen. We still today don’t don’t really know how the government is going to react moving forward by is definitely not allowed by close his his immediate family members not allowing him to go in country, and I’m not sure what would happen if he steps foot on the border, to be honest at this point.
Matt Kettmann 31:32
Well, and it’s great. I mean, some of the most powerful scenes in the film are when this you know, Iranian wine gets to expatriate Iranians, you know, in the United States, and they’re and they’re trying it and they’re saying, you know, I can really taste I tasted the home basically, you know, because they had to evacuate during the revolution. I mean, was that did you expect to get that level of kind of emotional response on the on the people who eventually tried the wine,
Vahe Keushgerian 31:58
I thought we would get good traction in the more the sommelier sommelier community. The restaurants in New York and LA and San Francisco, put it by the glass, that thing, because they’re always looking and searching for so I was not sure. The Iranian because we didn’t get the same traction in the Armenian community where we made Armenian wine, but for maybe because of the Soviet Union, the culture of wine drinking and stop. And in the West, we didn’t have it. People in Lebanon, Armenians in Lebanon, Syria. We didn’t drink. One we drank Iraq, which was what everybody drank in Lebanon. But the Iranians must have kept that taste. It’s in their culture, it’s in their poems. It’s in their everything is there. So they did, I received people writing me emails saying, Oh, I remember my father used to get all my eggs. No father used to get grapes from South dice to make wine at home, even during Prohibition, that kind of thing. So and it did that is it. We did screenings in Chicago and New York, and there would be a few events and then there was a q&a afterwards. And some they would raise the hand and talk about it. And I think it took a good reception. The two but especially my Sarah I think they are Iranians and they didn’t winemaking. So for them, it’s truly emotional. Because now they’re doing their passion in Oregon, as opposed to include the storm in Raspbian. Or in Shiraz. Well, I’m sure they would love to do it, you know, because it’s their homeland is that narrative. So I eat all I ever positive guy. I am hoping that they will loosen the tightness around winemaking and within a decade, I hope at least they can allow controlled or limited winemaking you know, but for export local market. It doesn’t look good every time I become hopeful. You know one lady without a scarf and you know a bunch of people get killed for a scarf. Because one could girl didn’t wear it. She She refused to wear it. And then people had, you know, went to protest. They got shot. So I and then I stepped back into reality. And my I lose hope that this worry that I’m talking about of course you know, shame or it’s a disservice to the people. You know, I mean, it’s wine for heaven’s sake. You know, it’s wine unites people. It’s, I mean, it’s the essence of, you know, I mean, you go to dinner in either on and you eat and you go you live, there’s no talking, there’s no communal discussion. There’s no wine. If there’s no wine, you know, how much can you do with Coca Cola? We are going to talk about art and poetry and your dreams for your children to do something without having a glass of wine. Just doesn’t have a four week doesn’t happen. It’s, it’s like a sound system without speakers, you know? Okay, yeah. And then so they eat and go. So, you know, we are used to sitting around six people ordering champagne and ordering a burgundy, then ordering something else, and then you know, going home refreshed, restored. So to say,
Matt Kettmann 35:47
tell me a little bit about the wine to what’s the name of it and what kind of what, what is the raw Shea grape, like,
Vahe Keushgerian 35:55
the Russia grape like is, it’s very, it’s different. And it better it has to be different. Because otherwise, you know, it’s not like I cannot pinpoint. It doesn’t have tannins, so in that sense, it’s closer to it has sometimes but not a lot of tennis. Definitely. It’s not like tannic wine. It has good fruit. It has bright cherry, a little bit of raspberry ish. This fruitiness long finish on the palate, it has a nice long finish on the palate. It’s called Russia. The one of the names is kosher. Now, of course, is beautiful. And I think it’s a beautiful one or something like that. I forgot the exact meaning. And, and Russia or Russia, we chose Russia to avoid confusion, people saying Russia ugly, you know, so. But mostly it’s in Iran. It’s used as Russia, you know. And all wise ungrafted beautiful hills, high elevation vineyards, very well kept vineyards, and accessible by mules and donkeys, you know, truly, maybe they did it high. So that, that they’re not controlled. Even the encoder is done. Honestly, they don’t give it them about anything. They were not worried about being exposed on camera. I don’t know if they even feel that what was going on, honestly, except this guy came, he wants to buy grapes. He’s Armenian, you know, we negotiate a price. It’s not like they were really worried about what was going on.
Matt Kettmann 37:36
Well, let’s talk a little bit about Armenia for to, you know, lead to the end of this discussion. But when I was in Armenia, 20 years ago, the culture was still much, much more vodka based, like we would sit down for lunch and polish off a bottle of vodka, or, you know, some some grilled meats and vegetables and all of that, and the wine was just starting to come up. So particularly in Karbach, we visited a number of well, a couple of wineries and try the wine. It was still a little bit, you know, a little rough. But some of the best stuff was the stuff on the side of the road that the homemade people were making and selling to us, which was which was fun to buy. But what I mean, Amy, what’s the sense your sense of the wine culture in our in our meeting right now? It seems like it’s changing pretty quickly. Oh,
Aimee Keushgerian 38:21
it’s changing so quickly. Yeah, very different than I think when you were there. But in 2015, we had about 38 registered wine brands and today we have about 200 Just to give you a little bit of scale of growth. We have new vineyard projects, we have international winemakers coming we have the culture in the city has has changed from a like you said a spirits drinking culture to a wine drinking culture and you feel that you’re in a wine wine city when you’re in yet Yvonne, every restaurant has wine lists has a good selection of Armenian wines. There’s wine bars opening there’s new restaurants opening. We joke all the time. You know, it’s every week it feels like there’s a new restaurant opening so with the wine, it also brought a rising culinary growth as well. And we’re still at the very you know, beginning of really understanding we don’t have Appalachians in the country. We’re so putting together Appalachians understanding village variations, different elevations of microclimates. And and so yeah, there’s there’s it’s just it’s feels like it’s growing and it’s definitely it’s definitely growing. The females were actually early adopters to to the wine to the wine industry before it was still very Soviet culture. And women and females tend to feel comfortable going out and drinking wine. And so now it’s shifted back in everyone is drinking wine. There’s we have wine festivals that happen every year we have the European wine days we have the Adeney Wine Festival. So yes, it’s it’s I it’s just it’s changing so fast.
Matt Kettmann 39:46
And you split your time between studying in France and living in Armenia. What do you what do you actually live yet?
Aimee Keushgerian 39:51
Well, I’m currently in Dijon, do my MBA it’s it’s a year long program so I’ll be back I’m do back in Armenia before harvest this year. This fall,
Matt Kettmann 40:00
and then is there much of a wine as wine tourism starting to happen in Armenia to just beyond the Armenians that live there? Are there people coming to Armenia to experience the wines? Is that Is that happening to you know, when
Aimee Keushgerian 40:11
when tourism is growing, our infrastructure is improving. There’s wine routes being created, there’s new wineries being built by it. So it is going to be the primary kind of the main focus of of line. We have five winegrowing regions, but at any invited so it is located an hour and a half south of Yerevan. So it’s easy to get to from the capital city. And it has some of the most energized projects and, and is developing very fast. So So yeah, wine tourism is definitely coming and developing. And yeah, it’s all it’s all kind of coming together.
Matt Kettmann 40:44
Why did you you obviously believed in Armenia, when you decided to plant some grapes there and go for it. But did you realize it would happen this quickly, and this dramatically? I mean, that’s a huge rise in just the last, you know, six, seven years sounds like?
Vahe Keushgerian 41:00
Look, I remember I showed the presentations early on, when we did the first project, this is around maybe 1112. That was 1011 1013 years ago. And I would make a presentation and say, you know, people would ask me, What do you think? You know, what Georgian wines? Can you compare them to Georgian wines? What do you think that you know, and I would very confidently say that we will not recognize the industry within eight years maximum 10, it will be a complete different thing. And people would look at me. I mean, because I had done some stuff. They couldn’t discard what I said, you know, okay, he’s talking again, because they gave me the benefit of doubt that, you know, okay, this guy, you know, maybe sometimes I doubt whether it would happen, but that’s natural, you do self doubt. If you’re in a nasty place, downplays you sad, whatever, like, I don’t think so. And then it came through now, I mean, you know, a few ones are top broomball top 10 wines from Armenia, or Cush was top 10 Forbes wine of the year. And, you know, I mean, and then there’s all the other magazines, everything else, there’s this rediscovery of the industry, it’s going to be now within the early adopters, I think early adopter stage, where, you know, wine sommelier types, Masters of Wine, cutting edge wine directors, in restaurants, cutting edge importers, you know, this used to be the same many, many years ago when I was selling wine in California. When Malbec came, you know. And then you will see Malbec. And then you’ll see another Malbec and then other Malbec. And then the whole thing just exploded. Now, everybody was into making Malbec Argentina is a good example. New Zealand is another one. It’s a new country, but it was incredible growth. And then the beginning was New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc, even Australia, I remember when they would come around restaurant setting or selling wine from Hunter Valley, or places whenever I had a restaurant in San Francisco, so I knew the pitches that they used to do. So I’m seeing hurdles. And if people do ask me, I confidently can say that it’s coming it just at some point, it just takes off, you know, the friction is less, and it will take off and more people will come to school, more wineries will rebuild, more tourism will come and so on and so forth. The important thing, which I think we’re doing is make sure that we do serious research, we get the clones, right. Because you know, you plant a vineyard for the next 40 years, you want to make sure is the right density is the right clone. It’s the right this is the right. But I don’t tell people, if we have done this much as an industry and gotten reviews, and write ups with leftover winners from the Soviet Union, imagine if we do with the right clones with the right density with a drip irrigation. Because we have the terroir you can take that away. It’s not like every country has volcanic soil, high elevation vineyards, and these indigenous varieties. So we have that. And it’s what we do with it is what mattered the most. And to put Armenia on the map. So I’m very confident. Yeah,
Matt Kettmann 44:36
no, and the timing is good. I mean, people are interested in all of those things now, right? I mean, maybe 20 years ago, people just want a cab but now they’re interested in r&d or other indigenous varieties because so many people are interested in the history of things and everything now. Amy, are you seeing many people of your generation hopping in in Armenia? I mean, is it is it is there a youthful wine culture coming out now to Yeah,
Aimee Keushgerian 44:59
We have we have an Armenian who’s going for her MW we have some of yours in restaurants we have my generation. Well, I guess we’re the second generation we have a lot of kind of daughters that are following in what their father’s came and started 10 years ago. And and we’re, we’re coming and starting to work with our family as well. So we’re starting to see that generational shift quite early on. And yeah, the one industry I mean professionals are, they’re getting their W set certifications, they’re getting, they’re getting started in in wineries abroad. They’re studying at Geisenheim University. So it’s definitely definitely developing into a really nice industry. And the most important thing is that the next generation starts getting involved. Historically, Armenians haven’t been winemakers by always says that Armenians have been doctors and dentists and jewelers and and professions that don’t require land. But now that we do have land and we have interior, we have territorial integrity. And we have vineyards, now the next generation is becoming winemakers. So we’re definitely seeing that. Great.
Matt Kettmann 45:59
Well, I’m excited to revisit Armenia and go go check it out, again, maybe my 20 year anniversary from the last trip there. But I remember being struck by how beautiful country it was, and how hospitable everyone was, and the food was great even then, I’m sure it’s much better now. I had a lot of a lot of fun there. And it was really a big part of my wine career. So you know, always have a fondness in my heart for it. I’m glad to see the wines are really quite excellent. The ones you guys have sent me were delicious. And I shared some with some Armenian friends here to so they’re excited to see that as well. So anyway, so we can if you’re interested in this story, you can watch a cup of salvation on some TV that goes deeper into into the the plight of VA Hey and Amy Kashkari in to make wine in Armenia and make some wine and Iran and all that. So thank you for your time today. Thanks. Good. Thanks. Have you tried any Armenian lines yet? How about that one from Iran? We’d love to know. You can email us your comments and questions at podcast as Wine Enthusiast dotnet remember, you can subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify and anywhere else you listen to your favorite shows. You can also go to wine enthusiast.com backslash podcast for more episodes and transcripts. Once again. I’m Matt Kaplan with Wine Enthusiast. Thanks for listening.
The post In Armenia, a Wine Renaissance Takes Root Against Odds appeared first on Wine Enthusiast.
