On the surface, winemakers appear to lead a glamorous, jet-setting life of international travel, fancy wine dinners and a never-ending supply of enviable bottles. Depending on a winery’s size and business model, there can be some truth in this. But most winemakers will tell you that the job can be messy, physically demanding and sometimes monotonous. There are always tanks and floors to clean, pieces of equipment to transport and wait times for ferments to finish. This rings especially true for winemakers at the start of their careers who are put through their paces both physically and mentally.
Inspired by a recent trip to Aotearoa-New Zealand, I spoke with three of the country’s most well-respected winemakers. They have many decades of experience under their collective belts, but for each, their early days of winemaking remain sharp in memory. They were eager to recount them—some with humor, others with incredulity and all with humility.
Take Paul Pujol. He crafts seriously good Pinots and aromatic whites at Prophet’s Rock Winery in Central Otago and knows how to spin a great yarn (which tends to be even funnier after you’ve both had a few glasses of wine). In this episode, he offers a cautionary tale of health and safety involving the sterilization of barrels with a probably-illegal and certainly-toxic cleaning chemical; the experience of unexpectedly becoming the first non-family winemaker at an Alsatian winery since 1795 just one year out of college; and a story we’ve titled, “Paul versus the 1996 Grand Cru Burgundy,” about a harvest party gone awry.
You May Also Like: What Does Work-Life Balance Look Like in Wine?
On a more serious and thought-provoking note, Jenny Dobson—whose own-label wines, as well as those made for other brands like Squawking Magpie, have earned her a formidable reputation in the Hawke’s Bay region—reminded us how far we’ve come regarding gender equality in the wine industry. She shared a shatter-the-glass-ceiling tale of gender discrimination in 1970s French wineries.
Lastly, Helen Masters revealed how she scored a job at one of New Zealand’s most awarded wineries, Ata Rangi in Martinborough via a bus ride, babysitting experience and a devoted mother. Today, she’s the establishment’s highly acclaimed head winemaker.
All three remind us that getting your hands dirty, embarrassing yourself and building resilience in the face of adversity are all part of life, even for successful winemakers.
Episode Transcript
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting.
Speakers: Helen Masters, Paul Pujol, Jenny Dobson, Christina Pickard
Christina Pickard 00:09
Hello, and welcome to the Wine Enthusiast podcast. You’re serving of drinks culture and the people who drive it. I’m Christina Pickard, Wine Enthusiast writer at large covering the wine regions of New Zealand, Australia, England and New York. We all start somewhere. Even winemakers, now at the top of their game began their careers scrubbing barrels for baronesses, babysitting the estate owners kid or being barred from the crash pad just for their gender. I recently returned from a trip to New Zealand where I was lucky enough to rub shoulders with some of the country’s top winemakers. In this episode, I coerce three of them. Paul Peugeot from Prophet’s rock winery in Central Otago, Jenny Dobson of Jenny Dobson wines in Hawke’s Bay and Helen masters from an Iraqi winery in the Martin Brewer region into sharing intimate tales of their early days in wine from the hilarious to the downright disturbing. Paul, you are one of New Zealand’s most respected winemakers, you’re the GM and chief winemaker at Prophet’s rock winery in Central Otago, crafting some seriously good pinos and aromatic whites. But I hear you have some colorful tales of your early days in the wine industry. Would you be so kind as to share some of these with our listeners?
Paul Pujol 01:28
Sure. Hi, Christina, I use quite often you end up talking to people in their established positions, but perhaps missing some of the early days. And to talk a little bit about how I ended up here. I studied in New Zealand. And having completed University, I came up with a fairly foolish idea. I was very keen and came up with this plan to work five vintages in 12 months. So was all about getting experience. And by using the seasonal difference between hemispheres, I figured that I could sort of get ahead of the game by moving around.
02:11
And
Christina Pickard 02:12
I’m exhausted just thinking about this prospect.
Paul Pujol 02:15
Yeah, it’s a it’s a very foolish idea. It’s a little bit like how many 90 hour weeks Do you want to work in 12 months, like I said, I was young and keen. And so I had been working at Sirisena state and Malboro initially in the vineyard and then into the winery for harvest. And then my plan was to work in 12 months Cireson so in Marlborough, the harvest is sort of March April. And then they had kindly given me the New Zealand winter to go and work the French harvest season. And so I had some contacts in France. And so I worked. My plan was to work three vintages in the same season in France, so starting in the Languedoc Roussillon because they kick off first in August and then moving up to Swansea, which is a very compressed harvest in September, and then moving on to Alsace who finish or start and finish last. So where the harvest normally starts, at least then in October, then I was going to have a small break and do the vintage in the Hunter Valley January February before coming back to Saracen for the following harvest.
Christina Pickard 03:34
And did you stay on track with these plans?
Paul Pujol 03:36
Almost. So I managed to complete the three vintages in France and finished in Alsace, where I was really fortunate to get a vantage position at Queen’s bass, one of the top domains in Alsace. And I thought I was just there for vintage, but at the end of harvest, they offered me the head winemaking position. And so there was an opportunity that was far too good to turn down, of course, so a couple of delicate phone calls back to New Zealand and the role was I took the job
Christina Pickard 04:16
And what was it what was it like?
Paul Pujol 04:19
It was, I mean, to give you a little bit of of context, I was you know, at this point, just one year out of university. So to be offered a head winemaking position was sort of crazy enough. But to be offered a he’d winemaking position and a domain that was over 200 years old and becoming their first non family winemaker since 1795. Was was a big stretch, I think and not only that, but I hadn’t worked or even seen, you know a number of the 12 grape varieties and Alsace before. So to step into that as your first head winemaking position was definitely a stretch, it would be fair to say that I had a little bit of impostor syndrome.
Christina Pickard 05:10
Let me ask you this. Were they drunk when they offered you this position?
Paul Pujol 05:15
Well, I think, you know, looking back on it now, I can see a little bit more clearly in Alsace. If people get into the wine industry and they train and study and do Viticulture and Enology, it’s normally because they’re from a winemaking family. And so they’re studying to take over a position that’s if you like is already set up for them or is already theirs. And so there really isn’t a large pool of winemakers wandering around Alsace looking for a job. And so the domain had been, I think, looking for a winemaker for a while. And, and they were Ted had basically only run into what they referred to as laboratory winemakers. And they wanted someone who was a bit more practical could actually operate the winery and, and in the vineyards, and knew about both sides. And despite not having been in the industry all that long, I’d studied both and had worked and both of their points. So I guess they sort of someone who was a bit more practical, and had been, I think asking me questions and and opinions along the way during harvest. And because I thought I was only there for for a couple of months. I was quite happy to share, share my opinions, you know, all gear and no responsibility. So I think that’s probably how they ended up where they were, and, you know, lovely family. They never told me, you know, how to make the wines or you know, try to come in and micromanage the one or the old oven. Yeah. So, yeah, I was pretty lucky.
Christina Pickard 06:54
And were you thrown in the deep end? Were there some, some interesting tales to tell in those first few weeks?
Paul Pujol 07:02
Yeah. Once you sort of adjust to the position, like, you know, on the viticulture side, like the two main grown crew below the village, were planted in the 1920s. So it’s a privilege to even walk in those vines, let alone run the theater culture on them. So that was sort of shock enough. And I guess they sort of saw something in there and had given me the job. But as if I wasn’t sort of nervous enough for one of a better word. I remember a few weeks into the job. Not only was I there sort of first non family winemaker, but they came came up and said, Well, you know, we’ve been thinking about it. We’re pretty sure you’re the first foreign winemaker and Alsace there’s ever been. That’s like, Okay, thanks. Thanks. Thanks for that, you know, so, so no pressure, and because of, I guess, who were the the domain, and then they’re sort of standing ended up very quickly. And all these sort of odd and interesting situations where you end up on juries for awarding the Appalachian. So the Appalachian jury, blind tastings. So that was, that was really interesting, but also, they had a seat on the panel. That makes all the laws surrounding late harvest wines, Vonage, Tardif, and slicks yonder grandnode, the the great sweet wines of Alsace, because Prince bass was was pretty famous for for dessert wine. And so I remember walking into this room, this panel of 10 people who decide you know, ripeness levels and all this sort of thing. And, you know, there’s Pierre turnback, and Marcel dice, Olivier on breaking all these legends, you know, whose wines I’d sort of looked up to sitting in the room making very serious decisions that will affect the production of these wines across the whole region, you know, so all of them and then plus the Kiwi guy. So that was a little intimidating, but amazing, fun, and just such a privilege. Yeah. And I think another early time, I felt like I’d been thrown in the deep end was having started in Alsace was my first sales trip to Denmark. In the story of my first ever, wine presentation or wine dinner. And so what happened was, I went with the director of consumers to Denmark, basically as a passenger so that they could introduce me to customers and the importer and so on. And so part of this trip, and I guess the sort of the main feature event was a very formal and very large wine dinner at the Varna palace in our horse, which is sort of a large, very formal wooden spring palace for the Royals. And Christian, the director was going to be presenting the dinner. So there were somewhere between 12 and 15 wines, including back vintages. And Christian was going to be the emcee. So Foley miked up from a lectern from a lectern presenting to it was somewhere between 220 and 250 people in this amazing, ornate ballroom, and this was your first ever wine dinner. Yeah, so that was my first ever wine dinner. And I was happy just to be a fly on the wall. But what happened was Christian got food poisoning at the last minute. And so suddenly, having arrived at the palace, he was unable to present and had to just go back to the accommodation. And so with basically no warning, I had to present this wine dinner, you know, for over 200 people in this amazing formal dining room with a lineup of wines that I wasn’t as familiar with, as I would become later. And as my first ever public wine presentation, and so to say that I was sort of peaking and nervous, would be an understatement. And so I certainly made sure to inverted commas, check a few bottles of wine for any issues before I started, and, and just jumped in. So, over the course of sort of almost three hours presenting to this, this huge ballroom of full of people, I basically did the best I could, and bear in mind, I was presenting some of the wines that I was presenting, they weren’t older than me, but they were certainly made while I was still at school. And so I just feel like I was in a position of like, you know, having huge banks of knowledge about all of these ones to draw on. And so I survived, and, you know, filled in with a few sort of stories about my experience of coming to Alsace and things like that. And at the end of the night, with a huge sigh of relief sort of set back down, and are important, cannot got up and wrapped up the evening. And it was all in Danish. And so I didn’t really understand what he was saying. But he must have been talking about how I had absolutely no knowledge I was going to be presenting the entire evening, because all of a sudden, everyone stood up and started clapping and laughing. And so that was my first ever wine dinner. And after that, the nerves were kind of gone, because every time I get up now to present to a small group or whatever, I just know that nothing will ever be that bad again. So it kind of got me over the over the line and one very difficult evening.
Christina Pickard 13:37
What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Right.
Paul Pujol 13:41
Exactly.
Christina Pickard 13:42
I hear you have another story of a an interesting, shall we say dinner a harvest party dinner in Burgundy that I’m hoping you’ll also share.
Paul Pujol 13:55
Sure, and so this is a number of years later. So having worked in Alsace for for a few years. I then worked a couple of years in Oregon as the winemaker at Lemelson and returned to New Zealand and started working at profits rock where I am now and a number of years later was invited to work harvest and the winery at controls devote grew in Chambolle Musigny. So you know, one of them one of the great domains of the world, and I was certainly not in danger of turning that opportunity down these mythical wines that I certainly wasn’t in danger of being able to stock up my cellar worth. And so there was the 2009 harvest. And so that was the first time I met Francois Millay, the winemaker at devote way for 35 vintages who I now have a collaboration with a New Zealand he comes out and makes a Pinot Noir and Chardonnay with me every year. And so anyway, I was tremendously excited to work with vintage at devone. And it’s quite a compressed harvest, where, because it’s just in the commune of Chambal Musigny, all of the fruit came in just a touch over one week. And so once the picking was done, they have the sort of harvest party where all of the pickers the seller, team was pretty small, myself and to others, the county says, who own devote way, all get together in the lunch room of the Chateau and, and have this this dinner. And so went home got changed after work in the cellar all day, come back to the winery. And the county says that they’re pouring everyone, champagne on arrival. And we walk into the lunch room, which has been set up and catered for the evening with all the pickers and everyone. And there’s just one wine for the entire evening. And it’s open, you know, all the way down the tables, there’s like all these bottles that are all open, and their spare bottles and crates down the side of the room. And I looked down, and my shock must have registered with one of the counties is because anyway, it was all 1996 Grand Cru bond. And, you know, one of the one of the great pianos of the world. And so the counties saw my expression and said, Well, Mr. Millay say that this wine is drinking rather well at the moment. And so we’ve chosen that for tonight. And so I sort of stood there reasonably dumbfounded at this essentially buffet of, you know, all you can drink, grown crew bond. And just took stock of my situation. And I remember thinking, well, and physiology, I remember learning that the human body is something like 98% water. This is such an amazing experience. Ideally, when I leave this room, you know, my body will be 98%. Wrong crew, Vaughn. And hopefully I can remember the flavor of this wine for the rest of my life. And so we sat down for dinner, and it’s all very, it’s very civilized, and the wine is just absolutely spectacular. And, you know, again, working there was just daily trying the best wines I’ve ever had in my life, over and over again. And so everyone’s very polite and sort of chatting away. And I’m sort of quietly working my way through a few, a few of these amazing glasses of wine. But being France and again, being a devotee, it was quite civilized. And so no one’s no one’s getting drunk or really taking advantage of, you know, what’s in front of them, perhaps apart from myself. And one of the pickers, and so, this young girl, Christa, got a little bit tipsy, she got up and gave everyone a song, and sort of big thank you, which was lovely. And so slowly we draw towards the end of the evening, and, you know, it’s been lovely meal. And I’m still focused on on trying as much of this bone marrow
Christina Pickard 18:38
I’m getting to that 98% water
Paul Pujol 18:42
Yeah, exactly. You know, like, you know, basically, I guess my view was that, you know, I’ve trained my entire life for this opportunity. You know, all of those, all of those cheap, horrible beers at college. Everything has been lining up for for this moment. And so, people start falling out and the room is, is now empty apart from myself and all of these open bottles of wine, which I see is kind of a bit of a travesty. And but I can hear a bit of a commotion outside, outside. And so reluctantly, I sort of got up and wandered out. And the picker crystal had given us the Wii song earlier. She’s having a little nap. On the ground outside the chateau in the light, drizzling rain, and the two county offices have found her. And so it became clear that the countesses had never seen someone visibly drunk in their in their lives. Because they were quite shocked and they were discussing what to do and really concerned they were like. You know, should we call an ambulance? Shouldn’t should I call my doctor and Dijon to come down? You know, what should we do? And of course, I remember thinking, Well, you know, if you just give me another couple of hours that may well have been me. And so I felt like I had to intervene. So I wandered up and said, Look, you know, I’ve, I’ve seen this before, I think she’s just a little bit tired. And so I went and found her sister who drove the car around, and so picked her up and popped her in the, in the passenger seat, put her seatbelt on, popped a bottle of water next to her. And in I reassured the county says that, basically, she just needed a little nap, and she was going to be fine. And then, suddenly aware that there was an entire room full of open bottles of Bong Ma, that weren’t going to be much, much good. In the morning, I tried to sort of wander back, in which point I was stopped by the counties as who said, you poor, you really need to go home now. And it was at that point I was, I was both disappointed that I’d come out and not stayed in the room just to have a couple of last glasses, but also disappointed that I wasn’t wearing one of those extremely long trench coats with large internal pockets. But feeling that I couldn’t really argue I sort of reluctantly, wandered, wandered off to sleep in my car. And so that was one of those funny moments that happens along the way, where you find yourself sort of in the candy shop, if you like. It comes whines.
Christina Pickard 21:44
Absolutely, I couldn’t a kid in a candy shop. I love that story. I have one more story I want to hear from you, which I believe we’re going to rewind in time somewhat to your days in the Languedoc, you gave me a bit of a heads up that this was a tale of health and safety. So I’m wondering if you could share, share this towel with us today, Paul
Paul Pujol 22:09
Sure. Rather, it’s a tale of life before there was health and safety. And so on that crazy Tour, where I was trying to work, five vintages in 12 months, the first stop and France was in the Languedoc Roussillon. And because they start first and August, and it was a very large industrial is not the right word, but a large old cellar. Not all that far from now on. But in land, it was fairly large. So when you were inside, it kind of looked like Alcatraz where it was a horseshoe shaped winery with a with a large sort of roof over the top. And it was two levels of concrete tanks with a sort of walkway on the second floor running all the way along with a hatch every meter. And that’s sort of what what made it look like a little look a little bit like a prison. But anyway, this seller, this very old seller had a strain of return or moises or britt this spoilage yeast that people try and avoid in the wine industry. That was so tough that it was resistant to just the normal ways that people avoid it, which is basically just sort of hygiene really. And so they’d figured out that the end, they wish they had successfully eradicated it, but they’d figured out the only thing that that kill this spoiler juiced was formaldehyde gas. And that’s not something that I was aware of. And it wasn’t certainly wasn’t something that we’d studied at university at all. And so before harvest could start when the winery was completely empty, so there’s no wine and then we on a Friday, the four of us in the cellar started at opposite ends of the winery. And on two levels at the same time, one person above one below and we had to let off these formaldehyde bombs in each of the 126 concrete tanks. So having set them up, what you had to do was sort of pull the pin on these things were and they were then sort of sort of explode if you like and just start spewing out this accurate, dark brown orangey tinged completely lethal gas and And it was fair to say that I was a little bit nervous. And so we started at opposite ends, you would sort of pull the pin on these things and sort of push the door shut, and then repeat and repeat as you sort of went moved as quickly as you could, towards the stairs at the center of the winery. And then we all arrived there at the same time ran down and ran out of the winery, which of course, you know, had been completely filled with with poisonous gas. So that was sort of nerve wracking enough. And I remember standing there out in the sun thinking, What the hell is this job that I’ve started doing. But anyway, we closed up the winery and lift it for the for the weekend. And so as if there wasn’t traumatizing enough, I was staying on site in a small house that was, you know, a few 100 yards away. And they asked me to come in early on the Monday morning, before everyone came in for work, and to open up and air out the winery so that it was safe for everyone to come back in and work there. And I didn’t really think too hard about it, or I might have turned them down. And so I turn up to the winery at about 536 in the morning, on the Monday alone with the keys. And I open up the big doors at one end of the winery. And sure enough, it smells like formaldehyde gas. And so I left that open for a little bit. But then I had to open up the doors on the other side of the winery, and they could only be opened from the inside. And this is a point that I hadn’t really thought about too much when I agreed to do the job. And so what this entailed was basically running through the winery whilst holding my breath and locking the door and opening it from the from the inside. And so it’s fair to say I was a little bit nervous, and while petrified, would have been more accurate. And so I sort of stood there and thought about it for a wee bit. And I thought, well, we just we’re just going to have to get it done. And so I made sure I had the correct key in my hand for the door. And then took a rather large run up. And as I crossed the threshold of the winery took a last big huge breath. And then ran through the winery without breathing to the far end is fairly large winery. And so as your cheeks are turning red, and you know, your eyes are feeling like they’re going to explode, got to the other end. Sort of like a horror movie where you’ve got to open a car in a hurry or something, you know, it was sort of shaking hands got the key in the lock, was able to sort of lift the crossbar pushed the door open and sort of collapse outside on the other end and was like a painting again, I remember thinking, sure this is exactly what I thought I was signing up for when I when I started studying in the wine industry.
Christina Pickard 28:27
I am glad you emerged unpoisoned.
Paul Pujol 28:31
Yeah, so that’s an incredibly dodgy story of, of the wine industry for I guess there were sort of tight health and safety regulations. But I’ve never heard or seen of that practice before or since. So then short portion retail.
Christina Pickard 28:51
That’s good to hear that you’ve not heard of it since. Well, those are fantastic stories. Paul, I always enjoy hearing anything, any story you have to tell you’re such a fantastic storyteller. And that dry Kiwi humor gets me every time. So I appreciate you, sharing with us and hearing a little bit about your early days in wine. So great to talk to you, Christina. Thanks so much. Absolutely. I’m glad you’re alive to tell these tales.
Paul Pujol 29:23
Yes, thank you so much.
Christina Pickard 29:30
Jenny Dobson, you are a well known name and personality in the Hawke’s Bay region of Aotearoa New Zealand’s north island. You have been working in the wine industry for over 40 years. You have your own label Jenny Dobson wines which features wonderful illustrations of your family members on the front labels. And you also make wine for a number of other Hawke’s Bay brands including squawking Magpie and Unison vineyard. When we met for the first time recently in Hawke’s Bay, you started to share some fascinating stories of your early days working in wine and I told you stop telling me all this on the Wine Enthusiast podcast. So here we are. And where would you like to start? Jenny, welcome for one.
Jenny Dobson 30:09
Thank you very much, Christina. It’s a pleasure to talk with you. I guess my beginnings in wine started and well, they started a long time ago. But let’s start in 1979. And I had finished a university degree in New Zealand and chemistry, and decided I had wasn’t a sudden decision. It was one of those decisions that you realize where you need to be. And I decided I wanted to make wine. In those days in New Zealand, there was no wine schools, there was no formal training. And I decided to further my studies by traveling, and I went to France, I was lucky enough to start work with Domaine de jack in multicentre knee. And I was blown away, I just found I’ve really felt I’d come home. It combined my passion, of aromas of flavors. I never realized I had an artistic side to me, I’d already always studied Sciences at school. And I found that winemaking is not a recipe, there’s an art involved, but it’s really useful to have the science. I was young, I was naive, I had a very poor command of French. But none of those things stop you when you’re young and enthusiastic. I arrived at do jack, I was picking grapes. But I really, really, really wanted to stay in work in the cellar, which is what I did. And those days in France, there was signs outside sellers that said up to do farm forbidden for women to enter into the winery. I was young and naive. I had a poor kind of fridge, I still went into the cellar. But it was it was considered a man’s domain. You know, in those days, it was it was very physical work. But also one thing that I’d say now, making whiners life, it’s it’s it’s not a job. It’s it’s its life. And maybe 50 years ago, it just wasn’t considered a suitable career life for women. There were plenty of women who were owners of properties, but nobody who really chose to make it a career. So they considered also that women had funny acids in the body, and we’re going to turn the wine to vinegar. So I had a few things against me. But I loved I just was I loved everything about wine. It’s so different. No two days are the same. No two vintages are the same. You’re stimulated, you’re frustrated, you have a sense of satisfaction, it rolls so many things into one and 50 years on, or 40 years on 55 years on 45 years on. I’m still as enthusiastic as I was when I started.
Christina Pickard 33:40
That’s amazing. Going back to when you saw that sign about women don’t enter the winery. I think there’s a lot of people, perhaps in a younger generation who would be pretty shocked to hear that it was that something that you thought when you first saw it? I must be that must be my French I must not be understanding this sign or was it something where you went? Oh, I know what this means. And I don’t care. I’m going in anyway. And then when you did what was the reaction from the men inside the winery in the cellar?
Jenny Dobson 34:12
Well, there was a combination. I was thinking, I don’t think I really understand that but doesn’t matter. I’m going anyhow. And I did work accesses very enlightened. He was running Domaine Dujac. In 1979. When I was there, his sons have taken over now. He was enlightened, but he didn’t want to shake the apple tree too much just so we’ll wait until the men have gone out to the to the vines and then you can come in and do some work. So the first year it happened the second year I was accepted I guess the wine hadn’t turned to vinegar. So do you feel like you maybe changed some, change some ideas or change some minds with, with with them realizing
Christina Pickard 35:12
Oh, hang on, you haven’t turned the wine.
Jenny Dobson 35:15
I haven’t turned the wine to vinegar. The job got done. And I think it was very similar. When I went to Bordeaux, there was a lot of skepticism. It’s a woman. But the vines were well cared for. The wine was good. In fact, the wine was excellent. And by the time I left Bordeaux, there was almost a sense of, oh, well, we have a woman who makes wine. I think perhaps in Bordeaux, to a certain extent, it helped because I was a foreigner. So I was weird and different anyhow. So the fact that I was a woman, on top of being a foreigner just passed, and I was so busy, I didn’t have time to worry about whether I was being accepted or, or, or even if I was breaking barriers in the early in the early days. I think I did sense it towards my, the end of my time in Bordeaux that I had probably reached at that stage, a bit of a glass ceiling.
Christina Pickard 36:31
And it did it start to change after that, you know, did you start to see I guess in the early 80s More women coming into the cellar, or was it pretty slow?
Jenny Dobson 36:40
More and more while I was in Bordeaux, there was a few women creeping into cellars. Lillian Ludwig is a foreigner, she was Danish, if I remember correctly, and at Chateau Kassa in the premier Cotes, Mandy Jones, who was an Australian, so But nowadays, if you look at the intakes into the Bordeaux, university wine courses, at least 50% of the people a woman or the candidates are women, to have women winemakers in Bordeaux is completely the norm. Now, I think 2003 I went back to Bordeaux. And already there was a major change since I’d left in 1995. So it happened quickly once it happened. It happened quickly.
Christina Pickard 37:43
Yeah, no, it’s a good reminder of how far we’ve come as well. And even to think about, you know, New Zealand in the 70s had no training courses for wine. That’s how totally days it was. And to think that France at that time, there was no women allowed in the winery site. It’s pretty, it really puts it into perspective of, of how far we’ve come certainly still have a you know, still ways to go. But it’s really fascinating to hear.
Jenny Dobson 38:11
One of the things that I see in New Zealand at the moment, the next generation, let’s say just after me. So you’ve had men and women working side by side in cellars as they start their wine journeys as they start their careers. So they’re working on an equal footing right from the beginning. So when it comes up to those people becoming Chief winemakers, CEOs of companies, there won’t be the same ingrained bias and prejudice that there was when I started off when I was the only woman amongst me. So I think then newer generations coming through women will have it’s never easy. It’s never easy in the wine business, but they will probably have a slightly easier path than I had as I came through.
Christina Pickard 39:22
Yeah, I remember I wrote a quote down from you, when we were speaking in person that you said to me, I’ll never recuperate that pay gap. So speaking of that, you know, we’re talking about women not even being allowed in the cellar, but what about the pay gap? And you know, that must have been something you’ve also maybe seen get better, but it’s certainly something as we know, is not on equal footing even now.
Jenny Dobson 39:45
Well, I was surprised. The New Zealand wine industry did a survey a few years ago that there is still a pay gap for women working in wine compared to men. I was surprised. I thought we’d got better. Certainly, I’d have to say, I took jobs at lower salary, then male candidates because I wanted the job. And it’s the way I had to work 30 years ago. So if you put 10% 15 20% lower pay over a lifetime, that really adds up.
Christina Pickard 40:34
It adds up. I know you’ve worked with Steven Spurrier, who of course, was the famed British wine merchant and founder of Academy do Vaughn, he was known for helping put California on the map with the judgment of Paris tasting of 19 in 1976. So I was fascinated to learn that you had worked with him. Could you tell me a little bit about how you got hooked up with him how you were involved with him, professionally speaking, what that entails?
Jenny Dobson 41:02
Well, I’d say there’s two crucial influences on my winemaking, one of them. The first one was, Jack says at the main new jack, where I learned such great or I formed the start, I started to form my winemaking philosophy of balance expressing vineyard. It was through xaxis that I got the introduction to Steven Spurrier and Steven Spurrier again was one of the great influences on my winemaking, my philosophy about wine, where it fits into our lifestyle, and the great enjoyment and diversity that wine should offer. So I worked with Stephen for almost two years, and Stephen was such a buzz to work for, for Stephen. Wine was so exciting. Wine tended to be if you were in Burgundy, the supermarkets, the wine stores, only had wine from Burgundy, maybe a couple of Alsace may be a Bordeaux, too. So in Paris, Stephen had a shop that was packed jam packed full of wines from all over France, from Italy, Spain, Portugal, Australia didn’t have any New Zealand. And I was teaching courses on wine tasting, and the wines of France, mainly to English speaking people. It just gave me the opportunity to learn to experience to taste wines from all around the world. And it was so stimulating, it was an absolute buzz, there were sessions. This is where the world is so different now, Monday lunchtime, wine tasting, where they would just people coming in and having lunch and tasting six wines. There were courses for simile. And so when I wasn’t teaching courses, I was preparing for the courses I got to, I got to taste so many wines. It was such a great education for the palate. And Steven was an inspiring, fun person to be around and so enthusiastic, and every wine was tasted, and you find the good points about a Wine, wine is for enjoyment. Don’t find the faults, that’s one of winemakers worst habits, is they taste a wine and the first thing they say about is something negative because they’re looking for faults. When somebody buys a bottle of wine, they’re buying it for enjoyment. So you must find the positives about a wine. I always say to wine students. The first thing that you write on your wine tasting notes is something positive. I think I look back on my life and wine which is still continuing her cuz I’m getting ready to make another lot of wines and I’m thinking about vintages to come. I’d say that New Zealand is a wonderful place to make wines. I really regret that we don’t have any indigenous grape varieties, but I do love exploring different grape varieties. We are a little bit hampered in New Zealand we have quarantine regulations, which is very good, but it makes it very difficult to suddenly go oh, I think that great variety would work really well. I’ll hear I’d love to make that wine. But I am making Fiano, which is an Italian grape variety with a tome around Naples. And that actually grows extremely well in Hawke’s Bay. And I love the wine that it makes. So New Zealand doesn’t have as many rules and regulations as France, which offers a great palette, not an in an artist’s palette sense of of making wines of character for people to enjoy. And I think you also have to be very attentive to changing lifestyle changing consumers. We’re looking for fresh wines, but people are still looking for balance. And balance has been the keystone to my winemaking philosophy right back from those days at dew shack in the late 1970s. And I still maintain a wine that is balanced will be enjoyed by many, many, many people. I love that I think that’s absolutely true.
Christina Pickard 46:13
Well, Jenny, thank you so much. I love your spirit and your energy and I love that after 40 plus years in the industry, you are as excited as you were on day one. I appreciate you sharing those fascinating stories and, and also reminding us of how far we’ve come in the industry and and also to keep to keep on working. Still glass ceilings to be broken for sure. But I really appreciate appreciate your time.
Jenny Dobson 46:37
Thank you very much Christina. It’s been an absolute pleasure to talk with you. And as you can see, I could have kept talking for a very long time because I’m so passionate about it.
Christina Pickard 46:49
Oh I love that you are wishing you best of luck with vintage coming up as well.
Jenny Dobson 46:54
Thank you very much.
Christina Pickard 47:01
Helen Masters, you are one of New Zealand Aotearoa is most talented and well respected winemakers. You’ve been making wine at the acclaimed winery. AutoRAI in Martinborough. At the bottom of the North Island since 2003. You make a range of beautiful wines, Chardonnay Riesling Sauvignon Blanc, Syrah, and of course Pinot Noir, the latter of which are some of the sexiest in New Zealand. But we all have to start somewhere. And I would love to hear how you got your start in wine.
Helen Masters 47:30
Right? Oh, thanks, Christina. Look, mine is a little I feel sometimes pretty funny about telling this story because it just sounds kind of weird. But I decided to be a winemaker when I was about 14, which is sounds pretty strange. But the reason I did is that I come from a very large family and I’m the youngest of 12 children. And so I got to observe a lot. And I had older brothers who were at that stage bringing home wines to family functions from mostly from the Hawke’s Bay at that stage. And, and what I observed is that family functions were always so much better, when there was a nice bottle of wine involved, we would just talk about the why people would debate about the wine and rather than talking about politics or religion, and I thought suddenly can this wine it’s super interesting, it brings people together somehow it made made everybody come together in a different way, when you had an interesting bottle of wine that you could really discuss who made it will come from with the great variety and and it really changed the dynamics I think of have a family big lunch which can you know, obviously, you know, golf in all directions. So I my interest was kind of picked the in as to what made wine so interesting. And I then worked with a caterer who had a really in depth seller and I got the job of stop taking it up the salary every month, then half the names, you know, observe a lot of Bordeaux back then, and I couldn’t pronounce the names but it was incredibly interesting. I love looking at the pictures of chateaus on the bottle when I was still only about 15 I was really kind of mesmerized that everything I read about wine was so kind of interesting. There was depth and layers and culture. And in terms of for me, I realized pretty early on that I wanted to make something tangible. I didn’t want to be a lawyer or an accountant that would just wouldn’t suit my personality. So when I left school at the age of 18, I decided that I wanted to go work at a winery and really see if this whole gig of making wine was as interesting as I thought it would be. And this is quite early on and New Zealand’s kind of winemaking path and But Michael Cooper, a wine writer had put out the wine at New Zealand and someone gave me a copy to flip through and I flipped through that. And I chose about eight wineries. And I really just chose them on on the picture of what the people looked like. And Clive in seemed really smiley and happy. And I was that I want to I want to go with the vin. I didn’t really understand about what Pinot Noir was versus, you know, mirlo border, I had some inkling that, you know, burgundy made a different variety than Bordeaux, but it was very, very kind of loose kind of knowledge. So I wrote eight letters. And Phil from Monsenerie, she was the only person who replied and she rang and said, Could you could you come over and meet us? And my mother, who’s very resourceful person said, Sure. And we drove from the coast, which is on the west coast of New Zealand, not actually that far from Marlborough, but on the other coast. And we drove through over the Remutaka ranges. And I was like, we’re entering somewhere else. This is such a different region. I’ve never been to the wider Napa before. And then I drove into Martinborough, and there was all these grapevines. And it was such a different experience for me. And we arrived at our Saranghae and Phil, Phyllis had just had her first baby. And babies for me were pretty normal from a big family. So I was handed the baby. And obviously, probably that’s what got me the job because I knew what to do with the baby. And so I spent that first year really doing everything I worked in Vinyard. I did the cell door, I looked after the kid, I left after the baby, I put labels on bottles, I tissues, and everything. I just loved the dynamics of it that every day was different. You never knew what was going to happen the way that changed. You know, the decisions needed change. And it was really exciting talking through why we made all those changes. So after that one year here, and Martin biodata rang me when I was about tender age of 19. I was like, right, this is really what I want to do. And I went off and studied for four years, I did a kind of engineering, biochemistry degree. And at the end of that, yeah, I knew I wanted to make mine but I also knew I needed to make some money. So I went and worked for a corporate food producer for about three years. And that really was important galvanizing that I definitely did want to make wine I wanted to be farming, producing the fruit, making the product knowing exactly everything, how it was made, and putting that into the bottle. So after that little wee stint, I started working. I worked in Central Otago with Duncan allsite who’s now now Edward, I’ve worked with him at amount at chart farm could have great experience. I’ve done a bit of Cloudy Bay with the old boys. They’re back very, very early on. And then I went overseas and I worked in Oregon and California and came back and then worked for Clermont Holland at Martin Vineya for three years. And during that time, there was been I I really, really cemented my love of Martin bar as a region I can see that the pinos for me ahead a special depth and quality and length of palette that I really, really enjoyed what I forgot to say back and about the about the trip, my first year of Martin Barrett is that my mother who is quite, you know, being the mother of 12 children, when I went up, Phil said, gave me the pantry, the baby and said, Can you start work? I said, Sure I can. And she said, Well, can you stay? And my mother said immediately, of course she can. And I said, but I don’t have any clothes. And I would say don’t worry, I’ll pick you up some which made me a little nervous because my mother’s and I’ve closed since when very similar at the age of 18. But she did it she she went home, she packed up all my clothes and some bags and she put them on a bus and they arrived in two days and it still blows me away to this day. But somehow a bus service delivered my clothes to Martinborough quicker than a courier can these days. So he’s off to my mother. She facilitated by getting out and doing things and that kind of can do attitude which which is still with me today. I ended up back here at Auterengi and 2003 I was working at Martinborough Vineyard and and the guys that Auterengi, who had become quite close family friends by now said do you want to come back here and work and as by chance I arrived thinking I was going to be assistant winemaker and was kind of tossed into this role as winemaker. So I really didn’t have a lot of time to think about, you know, the stresses of taking on a on iconic New Zealand labelr it was just like, into it full force. And and then it through and having two children, two young children at the same time which looking back on I’m not sure how I did but I have do have a fabulously wonderful husband who’s very patient and who worked from home. So really did bring up the children while I while I worked harvest and really just through my whole self into trying to really get to know what the fruit here was about what it meant to make art or any Pinot Noir, not just Martinborough Pinot Noir and that was actually probably really interesting those first few years, my first kind of full vintage chair was 2004. And that year, I think I just cried because, you know, in February, we had like 350 millimeters of rain. And I was just like, all my Lord, we hadn’t seen that before. And the whole place was flooded two days later, that water had drained away. And with careful packing, we actually I look back on that wine and I really couldn’t drink it for about 10 years, because I was so stressed out about the vintage. But now I just really love the kind of is just a sort of silky quality about that wine. And then the next is five, you know, the next following is all had different trials frosted, windy, you know, something came along a cyclone. And and you just, you just sort of learned to just brace yourself here and Martin borrow against whatever was going to be thrown at you and, and probably coming into it and really just having to just do it was probably the best thing that could have happened to me. And it meant that, you know, facing the last two years, which have been difficult 22 and 23. You know, I probably had been more relaxed about it and had more resilience towards those vintages that have been really trying that I would have had I had those vintages first up and knew more, I think sometimes not knowing a lot helps you really overcome adversity. And so I’ve you know, this outer ring is very, very special place. It’s a place that is completely family, everything we do revolves around around people rather than financial decisions, and which is what I really love. And you really get the sense of every decision as long term. It’s not about making a decision. That’s about well, how much profit is that going to bring? We have no idea half the time. But it feels right. And I really appreciate being able to work in a place where gut instinct, and that ability to kind of weather the storm has has been really a focus of just driving for quality, but also driving for a sense of who we are. And you know, our wines are distinctly at a rhaggy and distinctly Martinborough and we’ve been allowed to kind of, you know, as a team really explore what that means. And it is, you know, we aren’t quite distinctly different from other regions, Martinborough and, and then ash rang itself within Martinboroughs quite distinctly different. And I think that’s what, that’s what’s exciting. That’s what drew me to the industry. You know, back. Gosh, that was like, 1990.
Christina Pickard 58:38
Yeah. And I remember the first time you told me that story in person, when when I was over there a few months ago, you told me something about them wanting, you know, thinking you were the babysitter basically going, Oh, great. We hired a babysitter.
Helen Masters 58:51
Exactly. Yeah, well, I was headed the baby. First up, you know, and, really, as I said, I’ve got the job because I kind of knew what to do with the baby. And that was fine. because it allowed me time to, to really become part of the business become part of what made after ag tech. You know, if you’re just doing a job, you know, you you start at 8am. And you leave it for you get to see a part of it. But I became like that part of the family because, you know, I was, you know, I was happy to do whatever you needed to do. And I think that’s a really important quality that we really want to understand a business, just do whatever it takes do, you know sweep the floor, because you learn so much about what drives people what makes things happen, not just the specific set of tasks that need to happen. It’s like you you understand the culture by sweeping the floor and holding the baby. Yeah, it was like it was incredibly important to be that versatile in terms of getting the role right at the beginning.
Christina Pickard 1:00:04
Yeah, I think that’s a really a really good advice for anybody starting out and I think often we forget with winemaking how hands on it can be and especially with maybe a small to medium sized company where you know, you can just get stuck in and so many so many different facets of the business. And just also to say that I can attest, you know, I’ve only been there once, but even just that one time spending time with you, and Clive how tight knit you guys are and it was such a feel good winery visiting, you know, because you can see how much it is, as you say about people and not profit. And you really see that playing out. And it’s it was one of those visits that really kind of restores my faith in humanity, and in the wine industry. And so it’s just, it definitely shows you can see it, even from a brief visit with you so, so what you and what you’ve built, there has been something really special and I think you should be really proud of and I know you’re you’re on your 20th anniversary, right? So it’s the time to reflect a bit
Helen Masters 1:01:01
You know, it is great and, and to me that you know, I guess the more I’ve been in the business, it’s, it’s, it’s not about that one amazing wine. It’s about every wine really just being the best it can be for that year. And everybody in the team really getting that, you know, 23 was a was a pretty trying vintage. But we went out there into the vineyard and we pick some Pinot agree that God just looked awful. And the guys in the vineyard we we showed them this wine, they were so proud of what we’ve been able to do together to really pull together a wine that was actually really beautiful. And I think just being able to really bring everybody around as the bit that really excites me now it’s not about making an icon wine. It’s, it’s really about have we as a team really tried to understand the way they nail it and do the best we can, you know, I’d see that with when when mentoring younger people coming in, it’s like, don’t be in a hurry. Don’t be in a hurry to want your own brand. Because it’s such a bigger thing than you will ever understand if you want to do it well. And you need so many people around you to do it really well. It cannot be really tricky to do it as a as a one man band, especially if you want to grow the fruit. And I know for me, I you know, my husband and I purchased a vineyard and 15 which we’ve been sourcing fruit for Ash rainy from and we live out there and we found this this vineyard and and he he he’s a designer, he’s not a viticulturalist at all. But he’s actually becoming a really great viticulturalist because his attention to detail is amazing. And so we live there and my cousin ship pretty helpful we found that ourselves. So I come home from work here and and immersed in my own little kind of world of of our Vineyard. And what’s been really great is to release that as a single vineyard under our terrain. Because, you know, it is part of what we do here at ash ranky. And, and showing individual sites that are quite different. And we do that really only when that site has a has a voice and has vine age, and really distinctly shows a different aspect of the Martinborough terrace.
1:03:36
Yeah,
Christina Pickard 1:03:36
Yeah, it really does do you can see in your masters in your piano, I should say from your vineyard, you can really see that it definitely has the added ranky style, but its own its own personality.
Helen Masters 1:03:47
Yeah, yeah. And we have another vineyard, which relate released for the first time in 2020 called quilting, which is completely different again, it’s our only vineyard that is just all Dijon you know here at ash Irani we always have a portion of the ABLE clone, which is very much part of our DNA here. But coating arm was implanted by us, so it’s all Dijon. And really the the exciting that has been getting to know this very, very Gravelly site right on the edge of the alivio terrace and figuring out what what makes this possible saying and and for me, it was really saying that this is such a red throated crunchy bright wine. And so this wine, this is not not aged and burried This is aged and large format foodora. So a 2280 liter barrel to really kind of lift and keep that wine quite fresh and bright. And then these are the just the tiny decisions that we make, but that we sit and dwell on and discuss. And that’s what I love about you know, having such such a great group of winemakers is here in Mountain barrel we can, we can sit around and talk about little things like barrels versus food or for hours and what that brings to a wine. And, you know, those, those discussions that kind of make make the fine detail difference, but also such fun and such collegial things, and everyone has a different opinion. And that’s okay. So it’s kind of back to when I first experienced wine at 14 around the large family gatherings is that somehow the discussion about wine seemed to be a lot more positive than discussions about a lot of things that can be out there in the world when there’s a group of people together.
Christina Pickard 1:05:44
You can’t discuss politics, but you can discuss wine. Right?
Helen Masters 1:05:47
Exactly. Especially when there’s like uncles and aunts there who with different views that were always terrified of children. If politics was brought up, we will see that yes, some things haven’t changed.
Christina Pickard 1:06:01
But I’m still impressed that at 14 it really, it really piqued your interest wine because I feel like for me, you know, and probably for a lot of other young teenagers, it would just be I would just glaze over. So the fact that you were interested that early it was obviously meant to be it was your calling.
Helen Masters 1:06:18
It was so funny, because I definitely didn’t want I didn’t want my children to be sad, interested in wine at 14. Awfully funnyhow hypocritical we can be.
Christina Pickard 1:06:30
Oh, yes, that’s like I wanted I wanted to be an actress desperately and pursued the theatre for a long time in my first career. And then now now I have kids, I’m like, Please don’t go into the theater. Don’t be interested in theater! Very hypocritical, indeed.
Helen Masters 1:06:44
I know I’ve I think it’s a common thing for parents.
Christina Pickard 1:06:49
It’s true. Well, Helen, I think this is a good place to wrap up. I so appreciate you sharing your early day stories and updating us a little bit on what’s happening there. Now, you really are such a fantastic face for both Ata Rangi for Martinborough, and for New Zealand wine as a whole. So it’s such a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.
Helen Masters 1:07:09
Thank you, Christina. And thank you for your time and I hope the weather isn’t too cold there.
Christina Pickard 1:07:16
Thank you. So there you have it. To become a winemaker. You’ve got to get your hands dirty. embarrass yourself a little, maybe shatter a few glass ceilings and learn humility, humor and connection to community all the way through. And if you have a wine question or someone you’d like us to interview, email us at podcast at Wine Enthusiast dotnet we love hearing from you and appreciate your support. Please rate and review us wherever you listen to your podcasts. And remember to visit us at wine enthusiast.com for content and products that bring your love of wine to life.
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